?

Log in

No account? Create an account
Bruce
kor27
...:::.::. .::...:..
Moon Phase



September 2018
            1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30

Bruce [userpic]
Defense of Marriage

Thanks to joedecker, who did the major legwork, from the actual In re Marriage decision (pps 119-120):

When a statute’s differential treatment of separate categories of individuals is found to violate equal protection principles, a court must determine whether the constitutional violation should be eliminated or cured by extending to the previously excluded class the treatment or benefit that the statute affords to the included class, or alternatively should be remedied by withholding the benefit equally from both the previously included class and the excluded class. A court generally makes that determination by considering whether extending the benefit equally to both classes, or instead withholding it equally, would be most consistent with the likely intent of the Legislature, had that body recognized that unequal treatment was constitutionally impermissible. (See, e.g., Kopp v. Fair Political Practices Com. (1995) 11 Cal.4th 607, 626-662; Arp v. Workers’ Comp. Appeals Bd., supra, 19 Cal.4th 395, 407-410.)

In the present case, it is readily apparent that extending the designation of marriage to same-sex couples clearly is more consistent with the probable legislative intent than withholding that designation from both opposite-sex couples and same-sex couples in favor of some other, uniform designation. In view of the lengthy history of the use of the term “marriage” to describe the family relationship here at issue, and the importance that both the supporters of the 1977 amendment to the marriage statutes and the electors who voted in favor of Proposition 22 unquestionably attached to the designation of marriage, there can be no doubt that extending the designation of marriage to same-sex couples, rather than denying it to all couples, is the equal protection remedy that is most consistent with our state’s general legislative policy and preference.

Proposition 8 - assuming it stands up in court at all, which is questionable (Constitutional amendments require a 2/3 vote of the state legislature or a constitutional convention) - would, by definition, enforce differential treatment. Given the In re Marriage decision, the eventual result would be clear: The California Supreme Court would be forced to remove the institution of civil marriage in California.

One of course could still get married in a church (as before), and one could call oneself married (as before). As, in fact, quite a number of gay and lesbian couples called themselves before the In re Marriage decision. But the civil contract would be gone, though possibly replaced by some form of "civil union" with similar conditions (if it's good enough for the gays, it's good enough for everyone, right?).

It's unclear what would happen to existing marriages. Given that it's been pointed out that Prop 8 wouldn't affect existing gay marriages, probably nothing. But the ongoing consequences could be quite far-reaching:
  • There's a good chance that the civil process would be completely separate from the civil one, so religious representatives could no longer perform both simultaneously.

  • Other states have to recognize marriages performed elsewhere (though some have attempted to duck that for gay marriages, which is of questionable legality), and other countries recognize marriages performed here, by international treaty (As we're, umm, supposed to recognize gay marriages performed in other countries...). No one has to recognize civil unions. A marriage performed in California would have no bearing elsewhere

  • Similarly, a marriage performed elsewhere would no longer necessarily have any validity in California.

  • Federal law grants certain rights to married couples - not the least of those being the preferential tax treatment. It is likely that none of those rights would extend to Californians.
So. The result is quite clear. Voting either way on Prop 8 does nothing one way or the other about freedom of religion (Where do people come up with this BS?), and will have nothing to do with the spiritual definition of marriage (People are going to have ceremonies, and call themselves married, independent of what other people think).

But a yes vote on Prop. 8 is a vote for the abolishment of civil marriage.

Current Location: The Duplex
Mood: calmcalm
Comments

excellent. thank you!

It may not affect me directly, but I have some pretty strong opinions on civil rights.

And Prop. 8 is simply a case of hatred, all tied up in the pretty bow of "it's always been that way," while conveniently ignoring that what it always has been is a matter of hatred.

The court didn't do anything new. Actually, I'm pretty sure, given who the justices are, that they really didn't want to come to this decision. They simply recognized that (1) homosexuality is a normal state, much like, oh, blond hair, and (2) the right to marriage is defined as a fundamental right of all citizens.

The result, as in many cases with high court decisions, is a change. The court system is there to redress wrongs, independent of how old or ingrained those wrongs are.

Ironically, I'm against civil marriage (as opposed to civil contract/union) precisely because it is a religiously-loaded concept. However, your points re: reciprocity and federal recognition are particularly salient.

Out of curiosity, does federal law recognize gay marriage now for tax purposes, etc?

Re: your first point, I believe any citizen of CA can get a "temporary deputy Justice of the Peace" kind of cert. and perform a civil marriage. So no, it probably wouldn't mean no simultaneous religious/civil marriages, but it would mean no automatic grant of marriage rights to religious heads.

This is also as it should be, IMO. I don't believe in any law that allows the state to define what is and isn't a religious head (and thus, a religion). That's a clear violation of separation of church and state.

The Feds very specifically do not recognize gay marriage. This has caused a bit of international friction, since they are, by treaty, supposed to recognize all marriages performed in other countries.

I personally don't mind having a civil marriage - after all, it is, in the end, a contract. I personally don't like the way we deputize religious figures for the purpose.

French marriages, for example (since I've experienced those), involve everyone heading off to City Hall for the civil ceremony, then across town to church for the religious one. They call it "separation of church and state."

There was a rebuttal for the Mormon propaganda piece that is going around that I copied from the HRC webpage.

Read PDF here

It's an interesting read that brings up good counter arguments the said Mormon piece.

I encourage everyone to read it. *waves Vote No on Prop. 8 flag*