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Bruce
kor27
...:::.::. .::...:..
Moon Phase



September 2018
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Bruce [userpic]
A First Time for Everything

I've just had my first comment thread frozen. What with all the Open Source Boob Project crap flying (Sorry, kshandra), I found myself at this post, to which I felt compelled to make this comment, with the accompanying response.

I'm obviously going to avoid posting anything further there - for one thing, I get the impression that as a male, I'm disqualified.

Not to mention, y'know, someone who thinks she's kinda full of it.

But I am truly curious about people's opinions of the interchange, for anyone willing to take the time to look.

Current Location: The Duplex
Mood: thoughtfulbemused
Comments

Well she froze you, she didn't ban you or delete you. And what's with the "rape whistle and incarceration" not being an exaggeration? Do you know someone that's happened to?

It looks to me like she was trying to keep things on-topic. Can't blame her when it's such a contentious subject.

True - she didn't.

And you have a definite point, I haven't seen that particular combination. I've had a friend incarcerated after finding out his marriage wasn't valid (the next day, the woman took her daughter to the police to declare that he had touched her (the daughter) inappropriately). I've known people who've lost their jobs after decades of experience over one badly-timed joke.

And... thanks very much for the feedback. I've obviously got nearly as much emotional BS tied up in this subject as everyone else.

And I wish I knew a decent solution. Sexual harassment is a real and ongoing problem. Unfortunately, the present backlash is getting to be as serious.

I don't mind so much that you can lose your job over hugging someone. It's that you can lose your job because someone other than the two of you found the hug disturbing.

Honestly? I don't think she was passing judgment on you (and that, I believe, is what she meant by "...and it's not about you"). I think she genuinely looked at what you saw said, thought "This will NOT end well," and stopped the flame war before it could start.

People are being irrational all OVER the goddamned place about this thing. dafydd made a (locked) post about it that didn't name names and basically asked everyone to take a deep breath and think before posting; one of the other people on his f'list immediately responded with "Thanks for singling me out" and some big ol' teal deer about how she was abused as a child, and therefore had the Gawd-given RIGHT to be upset by this, and yadda fuckin' yadda...he may be in Seattle, but I swear to god I could hear dafydd's brain going "wait, WHAT?" (And THEN she whinged about him "singling her out" in someone ELSE's journal, to boot - and I knew I couldn't say a goddamn word on either post, because why else would I be defending my ex unless I was Another Tragically Oppressed Female, and and and.)

...see why I don't want to read any more of this? I knew SOMEone was finally gonna put a nickel in me.

(SO looking forward to the Hamptons tonight. It should tell you the kind of day I'm having that, when I abruptly remembered that I don't have to worry about taking gridlore to work tomorrow morning, I immediately started thinking about what clothes I should put in the car....)

Edited at 2008-04-23 10:15 pm (UTC)

Thanks!

I really am curious. And obviously, mildly miffed, too, but I'll get over it.

I have to admit, I find the whole OSBP blow-up rather bemusing. I only scanned the original post, but it seemed to be remarkably innocuous - basically, one could choose to actually advertise being open or off-limits.

Hell, wasn't a more general form of it ("physical contact") done at the last BayCon?

But I've seen the backlash, which, again, I don't completely comprehend. At the very best, all I can get is that (1) various people that have been abused don't deal well with touch (duh), and (2) they find that other people being open to such is a personal threat (tough).

Otherwise, I'm forced to run with the old "clear indications would remove the sovereign female right to be confusing" school of thought...

After all, no means no, except when it means yes. Though in the latter case, that's too bad, because my clothes are back on, and I'm out the door.

I look forward to seeing you tonight too, dear!

the most recent BayCon invented the orgy?

Um, no. That would be the Romans, I believe. Cons just try to keep the tradition alive.

What I was referring to was that one could get a sticker for one's badge - red, green, or yellow - that indicated how comfortable one was with physical contact. Mostly of the "hug" as opposed to "fondling" variety.

It was, of course, optional (and gender neutral), allowed hug sluts the contact they crave, and also meant that those with aversion to contact could avoid it.

Not to mention allowing those who were more picky the right to advertise that they were picky.

it's really beside the point for me to begin to offer pre-Roman examples from the literature

What!?

You mean - people had sex before the Roman empire!

But without Latin, what would they call it?

basically, one could choose to actually advertise being open or off-limits.

...and what keeps getting lost in all the noise is that the participants were advertising being open or off-limits to being asked the question. Nowhere is there intended to be any implication that asking the question will automatically result in a positive answer. And that's where I blow my stack.

But even disregarding that - why, oh why would it be disturbing for someone else to be open to being touched? By anyone, even?

I mean, ew, but it's their decision. If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't wear any labels. Sheesh.

Following the (mis)impression that a green button meant "yes, you can touch my boobs," it goes into "frightening the horses" territory. Because, yeah, touching someone's boobs in the middle of the hotel lobby is inappropriate, whether or not it's consensual. That's what room parties are for, damnit.

Hardly a week goes by when we morris dancers don't come to a halt in the middle of a dance to allow a horse or two to pass through the covered bridge in peace. Despite being the best dance surface in the county, it's a public space, and a right of way that's not ours to claim.

I don't think the analogy you're making is accurate, but I'm failing at putting why I believe that into words, and if I try any harder, I fear I will devolve into the same sort of reductio ad absurdum that has been endemic to this discussion, and the very thing that has left me wanting to throw things at people who are otherwise quite dear to me. Thus, I shall put down the Internet and back away slowly.

edited because I fail at HTML, as well as debate

Edited at 2008-04-23 11:37 pm (UTC)

<pout mode>because you're getting some and (even though I won't/can't admit/face it) I'm not</pout mode>

I'm wondering exactly how she felt you were off the topic of sexual harassment, but I don't disagree that there would have been 50 people jumping on it. What she said in her post is true; your response of it needing to be more gender neutral because it happens to guys, too is also true. In general people need to be more aware and less afraid of being helpful. Of course it could start by people being a little less flimsy about speaking up when they're uncomfortable, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

I find this society overwhelming casts males in the abuser role, and females in the abused, completely separately from what might have happened.

There's been a paradigm shift, true, but only in that it's now no longer OK for men to be abusers.

Oddly, most studies (of spousal abuse, for example) indicate that it's a pretty much even mix. There's violent nutcases and creeps to an equal extent in both genders.

But just try to find a battered men's shelter.

And this is what worries me, because if a woman yells "rape", the burden of proof that it wasn't falls on the man. And there is frequently no such proof available.

Very true. You're preaching to the choir here, but then I don't think you thought otherwise.

these guys left a poster on the wall down the hall (adjacent to the one about "young ladies, make money donating your eggs to infertile couples")
okay, I admit, it's virtual as opposed to physical refuge

Any step is a good step.