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Moon Phase

March 2019
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Bruce [userpic]
Continued From Last Rock Part 3

Yet another personal copy of a post to 365jesus.

This is the third part of a response to this discussion started in this post. The first part is here, and the second here. When greeneggsandtam started responding to this, she found that she had to break up her response into 6 fragments, and so suggested we continue in this community.

This particular section is a response to her comments in part 4, items 6 and 7. It makes a lot more sense if you read her items (and maybe some of the back discussion), and then follow here.

6) Well, yes, I think that if God had said "OK, my bad, let's start over," that there would have been a larger effect. Can you imagine the effects of, say, every person in the world having the same dream at the same time? And that's just an off-the-cuff example. As far as "dying for our sins" is concerned, the latest Jesus and Mo puts it better than I ever could:

Let's just stop here and consider a couple of things - things brought up very effectively by that comic. We're told God had a change of heart because of Jesus' sacrifice. So he changed his requirements for his people, and "opened the club," so to speak.

Except God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and sent Jesus here for that purpose.

So, rather than just doing the right thing in the first place, He (being omniscient) decides it would be good to screw up, then change direction after, quite effectively, slaughtering his own child.

This is not the behavior of a sane being.

My whole "water into wine" comment was mostly for fun - especially poking fun at the sects that substitute grape juice. Some quick research points out that wine was indeed less potent then - about 3-5% alcohol, or about similar to beer.

Getting drunk was quite a possibility - and likely happened, especially since the wine was supposed to be served starting with the good stuff, because no-one would be able to tell the bad stuff later. I find it amusing that churches that don't believe in the partaking of any sort of alcohol are based on this individual.

7) There are many reasons why people lie to start a religion, and continue to lie to maintain it. The most common seems to be a feeling that everyone else's story is true, so why not make it even more believable by adding in one little lie?

Not only that, but from far better scholars than I, there's the question of whether Jesus ever existed at all. A nice little summary - Religious Tolerance does its best to present all sides of an issue.

I'd complete the series, but I'm just about finished with dessert, and my battery's giving out.

And then I can get started on the response to your response!

Current Location: TGI Friday's
Mood: thoughtfulthoughtful
well, shoot!

Here in the context of lj I was sure that penile substitution had to refer to some form of polyamory.

Re: well, shoot!

I'd offhand think some form of serial monogamy, instead...

Re: well, shoot!

In which case the statement loses all the culture shock. I've got my genealogy, and serial monogamy has been the norm for centuries, for both sexes of ancestors, at least officially...

Re: well, shoot!

Though I'd assume that most of your male ancestors weren't looking for penile replacement.

At least, again, officially...

Re: well, shoot!

that's substitution, not replacement, a whole different nuance of meaning

Hey you,

Thanks so much for this latest post. I love reading your viewpoints, but I think you would agree that if I were to post a comic about homosexuality, athiesm, or anything else that shows a lack of respect...then you would probably get pretty fired up.

The things you say about God, the whole "changing his mind" thing, isn't biblical or really even what Christians believe. I would love to share the heart of God with you and what I've gained knowledge about regarding it, but it is just turning into a bash fest that I usually remove myself from.

I haven't been personally offended, so please don't take this as anger or me trying to disrespect you (because hello, you know I think you are awesome!) but it seems that at this place in time you aren't really into appreciating each other's viewpoints, but rather just kind of want to put them down.

You can challenge the validity of Jesus, and we can throw back proof of this and proof of that, but it all seems pretty futile if we are going to throw in hurtful comics and things that are just totally irrelevant and off topic, you know?

ANYWAY, totally still respond to my response previously if you want to and I will do my best to answer any sincere questions you might have.

Hope your dessert was good. I had BIRTHDAY CAKE ICE CREAM from Baskin Robbins tonight. It is flipping amazing. I hope the bay area chains have it too so you can share in my joy at an ice cream parlor near you ;)

I'm sorry, dear. I actually start out these things trying to discuss the matter somewhat dispassionately. Then I run into kind of a triple threat:

  • I have a tendency to make everything into a joke. Whether I want to or not. I've made posts about how miserable and suicidal I feel, and had people tell me the next day how much they laughed...

  • I have a never ever been able to understand the attraction people feel to the story of the crucifixion, pretty much for the reasons I've presented. I realize the comic is crude, but it also makes some very valid points.

  • While I no longer have the rage against Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, that I did in my youth, I still find myself falling into old ways. And, in fact, from the larger point of view of deism, I find I prefer the thought of no god far preferable, simply because any god that would allow things to become such a mess is no god worthy of my respect.
But even so, despite the tone - and again, I apologize for the tone - I am trying to hold a sensible discussion.

Though I have to say I didn't start this tennis match with the intent, necessarily, of "asking sincere questions." As I understood the ground rules, you're trying to convert me, and I'm trying to convert you, with the tacit assumption that neither of us is really going to change the other's mind.

My hope for this exercise was to allow us both to hone our own arguments a little bit, and possibly understand each other's points of view a bit better.

I mean, it would be nice if I could honestly get an inkling as to why the whole crucifixion thing resonates so strongly with you guys, just as an example.

Also - if you feel like posting conservative and anti-gay comics, go right ahead, m'dear. I probably won't agree with them.

But I might laugh.

Your dessert sounds awesome - mine was too: Cinnabon cheesecake. Though I was still reeling from the appetizer: Deep-fried mac'n'cheese. The only way that could have been better was if they'd somehow added bacon.

and huh...I am confused. Who said Christians don't believe in the partaking of alcohol? I just had a mimosa last weekend...uh oh...hope they don't kick me out ;)

I didn't say all Christians don't believe in the partaking of alcohol.

A quick rundown of standard Eucharist practices and beliefs (yes, it's Wikipedia again) finds that the Methodists use grape juice, and the Mormons use water.

Both groups consider themselves Christian. From what I understand (separately), both avoid wine because alcohol is bad, mmm'kay?

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that you, particularly, were of that belief. :-)

ohhhh okay i get it now. Yeah a lot of churches use grape juice instead of wine because of not wanting to trigger recovering alcoholics, etc. It;s more of a courtesy thing than anything else. My church actually does have grape juice, and I am so glad because i think wine is gross. And i really don't want to have to vomit in my mouth every time we have communion.

de gustibus non disputandem est
I know how you feel, but my tastes changed, and there's nothing wrong with that, so don't disallow that your tastes can change.

But as for Bruce, this series is missing the point.
These arguments are all external, the point is to look internal.

Frank Herbert had a piece of it in Dune, the Bene Gesserit could not look there, but Paul did:
Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You'll find me there, staring out at you!